Re: Flex alternatives

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Sal
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Re: Flex alternatives

Sal


--- In [hidden email], "Sal" <sal.celli@...> wrote:
>
> hi,
>  as i can sadly see from the message history bottom grid, many programmers are leaving flex.
> So this thread is to ask you all, if you have already found a valid alternative to flex for RIA development.
>

After almost 1 year, it seems that Adobe itself gave us the answer releasing Adobe Flash Builder 4.7 without the design view. This is a straight message to all flex programmers telling us that Adobe has no more intention, and maybe neither a project group, to continue flex developing. So now, after this year of reflections and testing new products, what is the real alternative to flex?

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Re: Flex alternatives

Carlos Rovira-2
Real alternative?... Nothing. There's only Flex  ;)

El sábado, 15 de diciembre de 2012, Sal escribió:

> **
>
>
>
>
> --- In [hidden email] <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> 'flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com');>, "Sal" <sal.celli@...> wrote:
> >
> > hi,
> > as i can sadly see from the message history bottom grid, many
> programmers are leaving flex.
> > So this thread is to ask you all, if you have already found a valid
> alternative to flex for RIA development.
> >
>
> After almost 1 year, it seems that Adobe itself gave us the answer
> releasing Adobe Flash Builder 4.7 without the design view. This is a
> straight message to all flex programmers telling us that Adobe has no more
> intention, and maybe neither a project group, to continue flex developing.
> So now, after this year of reflections and testing new products, what is
> the real alternative to flex?
>
>  
>


--
Sent from Gmail Mobile
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Re: Flex alternatives

Riccardo Cohen-2
Hello
I recently found an interesting product : http://cappuccino.org which
seems to be technically a good alternative for flex (if needed). I have
not investigated at all, just had a look.

Of course, if even Adobe's flex is not reliable from the perennity point
of view, there is no reason why capuccino can be more reliable. And you
may invest in it and loose all, just like for flex as tablet browser plugin.

I can only hope that one beautiful day, all browser will be 100% html5
compatible (will it be html6 at this time ?) and our developer's anxiety
will be solved. (I don't beleive to that too, anyway.)


On 16/12/12 01:01, Carlos Rovira wrote:

> Real alternative?... Nothing. There's only Flex  ;)
>
> El sábado, 15 de diciembre de 2012, Sal escribió:
>
>     __
>
>
>
>     --- In [hidden email], "Sal" <sal.celli@...> wrote:
>      >
>      > hi,
>      > as i can sadly see from the message history bottom grid, many
>     programmers are leaving flex.
>      > So this thread is to ask you all, if you have already found a
>     valid alternative to flex for RIA development.
>      >
>
>     After almost 1 year, it seems that Adobe itself gave us the answer
>     releasing Adobe Flash Builder 4.7 without the design view. This is a
>     straight message to all flex programmers telling us that Adobe has
>     no more intention, and maybe neither a project group, to continue
>     flex developing. So now, after this year of reflections and testing
>     new products, what is the real alternative to flex?
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from Gmail Mobile
>
>

--
Riccardo Cohen
+33 (0)6 09 83 64 49
Société Realty-Property.com
1 rue de la Monnaie
37000 Tours
France

<http://www.appartement-maison.fr>


------------------------------------

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Re: Flex alternatives

Carlos Rovira-2
In reply to this post by Sal
Real alternative?... Nothing. There's only Flex  ;)

El sábado, 15 de diciembre de 2012, Sal escribió:

> **
>
>
>
>
> --- In [hidden email] <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> 'flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com');>, "Sal" <sal.celli@...> wrote:
> >
> > hi,
> > as i can sadly see from the message history bottom grid, many
> programmers are leaving flex.
> > So this thread is to ask you all, if you have already found a valid
> alternative to flex for RIA development.
> >
>
> After almost 1 year, it seems that Adobe itself gave us the answer
> releasing Adobe Flash Builder 4.7 without the design view. This is a
> straight message to all flex programmers telling us that Adobe has no more
> intention, and maybe neither a project group, to continue flex developing.
> So now, after this year of reflections and testing new products, what is
> the real alternative to flex?
>
>  
>


--
Sent from Gmail Mobile
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Re: Flex alternatives

Alex Harui
In reply to this post by Sal
Adobe has spent the year donating the Flex SDK and Falcon compilers to the Apache Software Foundation.  While Adobe has a small set of people contributing to Flex in Apache and a team that shipped Flash Builder 4.7 and is working on subsequent Flash Builder release, Adobe is not leading the development of Flex and has not been for a full year.  The future of Flex is in the hands of the Apache Flex community.  This document should have made Adobe’s plans clear: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html

Meanwhile, there is plenty of activity in the Apache Flex community, including an effort to leverage ActionScript and MXML to write applications that can run without Flash, by translating ActionScript to JavaScript.  If you like to use Flex, you may want to find a way to contribute to the Apache Flex project.  The main page for the Apache Flex project is currently: http://incubator.apache.org/flex/ but will change if/when we become an official Apache top-level project.

This document describes one approach to Flex without Flash.  There are other approaches being investigated at this time.

-Alex


On 12/15/12 1:59 AM, "Sal" <[hidden email]> wrote:








--- In [hidden email] <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> , "Sal" <sal.celli@...> wrote:
>
> hi,
>  as i can sadly see from the message history bottom grid, many programmers are leaving flex.
> So this thread is to ask you all, if you have already found a valid alternative to flex for RIA development.
>

After almost 1 year, it seems that Adobe itself gave us the answer releasing Adobe Flash Builder 4.7 without the design view. This is a straight message to all flex programmers telling us that Adobe has no more intention, and maybe neither a project group, to continue flex developing. So now, after this year of reflections and testing new products, what is the real alternative to flex?






--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
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Re: Flex alternatives

John McCormack
On 17/12/2012 05:12, Alex Harui wrote:

> Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives
>
> Adobe has spent the year donating the Flex SDK and Falcon compilers to
> the Apache Software Foundation.  While Adobe has a small set of people
> contributing to Flex in Apache and a team that shipped Flash Builder
> 4.7 and is working on subsequent Flash Builder release, Adobe is not
> leading the development of Flex and has not been for a full year.  The
> future of Flex is in the hands of the Apache Flex community.  This
> document should have made Adobe’s plans clear:
> http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html
I followed this link through to
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html

Under Flash Player "Next" this says...
" and provide a foundation on which Flash can move forward over the next
decade."

Does this imply ActionScript working collaboratively with HTML5 or is it
an alternative to HTML5?

I am asking because I am hoping Flash Builder will continue to offer me
a way forward (AS3+HTML5).

John
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Re: Flex alternatives

Alex Harui
Adobe has no plans that I know of to get ActionScript to work with HTML5 in the same way that Google is proposing Dart as an alternative to JavaScript.

The Apache Flex project is working on a compiler that will translate ActionScript to JavaScript.  In addition, the link I posted proposes a component framework that would enable you to build or prototype your app in Flash using FlashBuilder and ActionScript and then run a separate tool outside of FlashBuilder to translate it to JavaScript where it will run and leverage HTML or HTML5 components.

Alternatively, the same ActionScript to JavaScript compiler would let you write the script portions of your website as ActionScript using FlashBuilder and have separate HTML files, then use the same separate tool outside of FlashBuilder to translate the ActionScript to JavaScript.  And maybe variations will be created that can output to various JS frameworks.

At this time, there are no plans to change FlashBuilder to integrate the translation workflow.  Adobe’s focus for FlashBuilder is on building ActionScript gaming and premium video projects that run on the Flash player.  I suppose if the JS workflow became wildly popular and Adobe could see a revenue stream by supporting such a workflow things might change, but I wouldn’t count on it.  There is a better chance that someone in Apache Flex will start creating plugins for Eclipse to support the workflow or one of the other tool vendors will provide an integrated workflow.

The future of ActionScript 3 in Rich Internet Applications (as opposed to ActionScript “Next” as mentioned in the Flash roadmap) is actually being given more attention by Apache Flex than Adobe.  If you want to continue to use ActionScript 3 to develop RIAs, I would encourage you to get involved with the Apache Flex project.

On 12/17/12 2:16 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:







On 17/12/2012 05:12, Alex Harui wrote:


  Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Adobe has spent the year donating the Flex SDK and Falcon compilers to the Apache Software Foundation.  While Adobe has a small set of people contributing to Flex in Apache and a team that shipped Flash Builder 4.7 and is working on subsequent Flash Builder release, Adobe is not leading the development of Flex and has not been for a full year.  The future of Flex is in the hands of the Apache Flex community.  This document should have made Adobe’s plans clear: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html

I followed this link through to
 http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html

 Under Flash Player "Next" this says...
 " and provide a foundation on which Flash can move forward over the next decade."

 Does this imply ActionScript working collaboratively with HTML5 or is it an alternative to HTML5?

 I am asking because I am hoping Flash Builder will continue to offer me a way forward (AS3+HTML5).

 John






--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
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Re: Flex alternatives

Nigel Magnay
>
> Adobe’s focus for FlashBuilder is on building ActionScript gaming and
> premium video projects that run on the Flash player.
>
I think many people assumed that the driver was "legacy" in-browser flex
apps, plus AIR apps for mobile devices. That the older, legacy support had
been farmed out to Apache, leaving the Flash Builder products as 'premium
value-added design tools' fit consistently with what Adobe does elsewhere.

The (baffling) removal of design view in 4.7 puts that impression to the
sword, however.

I'm not saying it's the wrong way to go - it's after all up to Adobe to
choose where to invest their product development. It's in a sense good to
know that Adobe has ceded all hope of competing with Google or Microsoft
for HTML5 application building - that makes the choices a bit easier.
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Re: Flex alternatives

John McCormack
In reply to this post by Alex Harui
Thank you.
That's interesting and very helpful.

One does wonder if a separate translation tool would do the job
faithfully, and so creates doubt.

For someone that wants to use SWFs in PDFs to deliver educational
content that is fully interactive, what workflow would you suggest using
for the next three to five years?

John

On 17/12/2012 16:31, Alex Harui wrote:

> Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives
>
> Adobe has no plans that I know of to get ActionScript to work with
> HTML5 in the same way that Google is proposing Dart as an alternative
> to JavaScript.
>
> The Apache Flex project is working on a compiler that will translate
> ActionScript to JavaScript.  In addition, the link I posted proposes a
> component framework that would enable you to build or prototype your
> app in Flash using FlashBuilder and ActionScript and then run a
> separate tool outside of FlashBuilder to translate it to JavaScript
> where it will run and leverage HTML or HTML5 components.
>
> Alternatively, the same ActionScript to JavaScript compiler would let
> you write the script portions of your website as ActionScript using
> FlashBuilder and have separate HTML files, then use the same separate
> tool outside of FlashBuilder to translate the ActionScript to
> JavaScript.  And maybe variations will be created that can output to
> various JS frameworks.
>
> At this time, there are no plans to change FlashBuilder to integrate
> the translation workflow.  Adobe’s focus for FlashBuilder is on
> building ActionScript gaming and premium video projects that run on
> the Flash player.  I suppose if the JS workflow became wildly popular
> and Adobe could see a revenue stream by supporting such a workflow
> things might change, but I wouldn’t count on it.  There is a better
> chance that someone in Apache Flex will start creating plugins for
> Eclipse to support the workflow or one of the other tool vendors will
> provide an integrated workflow.
>
> The future of ActionScript 3 in Rich Internet Applications (as opposed
> to ActionScript “Next” as mentioned in the Flash roadmap) is actually
> being given more attention by Apache Flex than Adobe.  If you want to
> continue to use ActionScript 3 to develop RIAs, I would encourage you
> to get involved with the Apache Flex project.
>
> On 12/17/12 2:16 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     On 17/12/2012 05:12, Alex Harui wrote:
>
>
>           Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Adobe has spent the
>         year donating the Flex SDK and Falcon compilers to the Apache
>         Software Foundation.  While Adobe has a small set of people
>         contributing to Flex in Apache and a team that shipped Flash
>         Builder 4.7 and is working on subsequent Flash Builder
>         release, Adobe is not leading the development of Flex and has
>         not been for a full year.  The future of Flex is in the hands
>         of the Apache Flex community.  This document should have made
>         Adobe’s plans clear:
>         http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html
>
>     I followed this link through to
>     http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html
>
>      Under Flash Player "Next" this says...
>      " and provide a foundation on which Flash can move forward over
>     the next decade."
>
>      Does this imply ActionScript working collaboratively with HTML5
>     or is it an alternative to HTML5?
>
>      I am asking because I am hoping Flash Builder will continue to
>     offer me a way forward (AS3+HTML5).
>
>      John
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Alex Harui
> Flex SDK Team
> Adobe Systems, Inc.
> http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
>

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Re: Flex alternatives

Alex Harui
In reply to this post by Nigel Magnay
I’m not sure I understood.  These roadmaps are nearly a year old.  Folks still thought that Flash Builder was being developed for Rich Internet Apps?  I guess we failed again to get the message out.

DesignView, as was discussed several times on the Apache Flex mailing list, is tied to specific SDK versions and as such, it was not possible for Adobe to certify DV against Apache Flex versions.

Adobe is investing in a whole new set of tools to address new workflows for HTML5 development.  If you are near a large city, try to find out when the “Create The Web” tour comes to your city.


On 12/17/12 8:54 AM, "Nigel Magnay" <[hidden email]> wrote:






Adobe’s focus for FlashBuilder is on building ActionScript gaming and premium video projects that run on the Flash player.

I think many people assumed that the driver was "legacy" in-browser flex apps, plus AIR apps for mobile devices. That the older, legacy support had been farmed out to Apache, leaving the Flash Builder products as 'premium value-added design tools' fit consistently with what Adobe does elsewhere.

The (baffling) removal of design view in 4.7 puts that impression to the sword, however.

I'm not saying it's the wrong way to go - it's after all up to Adobe to choose where to invest their product development. It's in a sense good to know that Adobe has ceded all hope of competing with Google or Microsoft for HTML5 application building - that makes the choices a bit easier.





--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
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Re: Flex alternatives

Alex Harui
In reply to this post by John McCormack
Things get lost in translation, but one goal of the parallel frameworks is to not leverage things that get lost in translation.  Otherwise, since JS and AS are ECMA-based, the translation works pretty well.

Keep in mind that, while Adobe is no longer investing in ActionScript 3 on the Flash Player, and not developing Flash Player for mobile devices, and AIR may not run on all mobile devices, where the FlashPlayer is today, it will likely be there “forever”.  So, if alll of your users are using desktops/laptops that have browsers that have Flash, you can continue to use Flex and/or ActionScript 3 to build applications and they will likely run there not just in five years, but even after that.  There is no time-bomb in the players that will go off and stop running.  Even though ActionScript Next and FlashPlayer Next are not compatibile with ActionScript 3, the AS3 VM will ship in the FlashPlayers that Adobe ships in the future.  There is the possibility that the browser vendors will stop supporting plugins, but I would imagine they will keep a compatibility-mode somehow.  I think there is too much Flash content out there and to block it from existing desktops/laptops would “break the web” and I don’t expect the browser vendors or Adobe take such a risk.  There would be too much negative press.  That doesn’t mean that new computers with new OS’s may not support Flash (that’s what Apple did with IOS), and many home users may forgo traditional computers for tablets in the future, so keep that in mind as well.

I don’t know the PDF market that well, but again, I would expect PDFs to continue to support Flash “forever” as well.  At least for the readers on traditional desktops/laptops.


On 12/17/12 10:48 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:







Thank you.
 That's interesting and very helpful.

 One does wonder if a separate translation tool would do the job faithfully, and so creates doubt.

 For someone that wants to use SWFs in PDFs to deliver educational content that is fully interactive, what workflow would you suggest using for the next three to five years?

 John

 On 17/12/2012 16:31, Alex Harui wrote:


  Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Adobe has no plans that I know of to get ActionScript to work with HTML5 in the same way that Google is proposing Dart as an alternative to JavaScript.

 The Apache Flex project is working on a compiler that will translate ActionScript to JavaScript.  In addition, the link I posted proposes a component framework that would enable you to build or prototype your app in Flash using FlashBuilder and ActionScript and then run a separate tool outside of FlashBuilder to translate it to JavaScript where it will run and leverage HTML or HTML5 components.

 Alternatively, the same ActionScript to JavaScript compiler would let you write the script portions of your website as ActionScript using FlashBuilder and have separate HTML files, then use the same separate tool outside of FlashBuilder to translate the ActionScript to JavaScript.  And maybe variations will be created that can output to various JS frameworks.

 At this time, there are no plans to change FlashBuilder to integrate the translation workflow.  Adobe’s focus for FlashBuilder is on building ActionScript gaming and premium video projects that run on the Flash player.  I suppose if the JS workflow became wildly popular and Adobe could see a revenue stream by supporting such a workflow things might change, but I wouldn’t count on it.  There is a better chance that someone in Apache Flex will start creating plugins for Eclipse to support the workflow or one of the other tool vendors will provide an integrated workflow.

 The future of ActionScript 3 in Rich Internet Applications (as opposed to ActionScript “Next” as mentioned in the Flash roadmap) is actually being given more attention by Apache Flex than Adobe.  If you want to continue to use ActionScript 3 to develop RIAs, I would encourage you to get involved with the Apache Flex project.

 On 12/17/12 2:16 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:








 On 17/12/2012 05:12, Alex Harui wrote:



  Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Adobe has spent the year donating the Flex SDK and Falcon compilers to the Apache Software Foundation.  While Adobe has a small set of people contributing to Flex in Apache and a team that shipped Flash Builder 4.7 and is working on subsequent Flash Builder release, Adobe is not leading the development of Flex and has not been for a full year.  The future of Flex is in the hands of the Apache Flex community.  This document should have made Adobe’s plans clear: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html


 I followed this link through to
  http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html

  Under Flash Player "Next" this says...
  " and provide a foundation on which Flash can move forward over the next decade."

  Does this imply ActionScript working collaboratively with HTML5 or is it an alternative to HTML5?

  I am asking because I am hoping Flash Builder will continue to offer me a way forward (AS3+HTML5).

  John







 --
 Alex Harui
 Flex SDK Team
 Adobe Systems, Inc.
 http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui









--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
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Re: Flex alternatives

John McCormack
Thank you again.

Although ActionScript is not being developed for the FlashPlayer, is it
possible that it may still be developed separately for use in AIR? I
could deliver content through AIR instead of PDFs.

My problem is that the FlashBuilder / Flash Professional workflow is
such a seductive one, with that easy marriage of graphics and code, that
I don't want to lose it. I have used C++ to produce graphical programs
and the AS3 route is a godsend in comparison.

One wonders "Is HMTL5 going to use any less CPU cycles than AS3, once it
is doing similar work?"

John

On 18/12/2012 05:38, Alex Harui wrote:

> Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives
>
> Things get lost in translation, but one goal of the parallel
> frameworks is to not leverage things that get lost in translation.
>  Otherwise, since JS and AS are ECMA-based, the translation works
> pretty well.
>
> Keep in mind that, while Adobe is no longer investing in ActionScript
> 3 on the Flash Player, and not developing Flash Player for mobile
> devices, and AIR may not run on all mobile devices, where the
> FlashPlayer is today, it will likely be there “forever”.  So, if alll
> of your users are using desktops/laptops that have browsers that have
> Flash, you can continue to use Flex and/or ActionScript 3 to build
> applications and they will likely run there not just in five years,
> but even after that.  There is no time-bomb in the players that will
> go off and stop running.  Even though ActionScript Next and
> FlashPlayer Next are not compatibile with ActionScript 3, the AS3 VM
> will ship in the FlashPlayers that Adobe ships in the future.  There
> is the possibility that the browser vendors will stop supporting
> plugins, but I would imagine they will keep a compatibility-mode
> somehow.  I think there is too much Flash content out there and to
> block it from existing desktops/laptops would “break the web” and I
> don’t expect the browser vendors or Adobe take such a risk.  There
> would be too much negative press.  That doesn’t mean that new
> computers with new OS’s may not support Flash (that’s what Apple did
> with IOS), and many home users may forgo traditional computers for
> tablets in the future, so keep that in mind as well.
>
> I don’t know the PDF market that well, but again, I would expect PDFs
> to continue to support Flash “forever” as well.  At least for the
> readers on traditional desktops/laptops.
>
>
> On 12/17/12 10:48 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>     Thank you.
>      That's interesting and very helpful.
>
>      One does wonder if a separate translation tool would do the job
>     faithfully, and so creates doubt.
>
>      For someone that wants to use SWFs in PDFs to deliver educational
>     content that is fully interactive, what workflow would you suggest
>     using for the next three to five years?
>
>      John
>
>      On 17/12/2012 16:31, Alex Harui wrote:
>
>
>           Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Adobe has no plans
>         that I know of to get ActionScript to work with HTML5 in the
>         same way that Google is proposing Dart as an alternative to
>         JavaScript.
>
>          The Apache Flex project is working on a compiler that will
>         translate ActionScript to JavaScript.  In addition, the link I
>         posted proposes a component framework that would enable you to
>         build or prototype your app in Flash using FlashBuilder and
>         ActionScript and then run a separate tool outside of
>         FlashBuilder to translate it to JavaScript where it will run
>         and leverage HTML or HTML5 components.
>
>          Alternatively, the same ActionScript to JavaScript compiler
>         would let you write the script portions of your website as
>         ActionScript using FlashBuilder and have separate HTML files,
>         then use the same separate tool outside of FlashBuilder to
>         translate the ActionScript to JavaScript.  And maybe
>         variations will be created that can output to various JS
>         frameworks.
>
>          At this time, there are no plans to change FlashBuilder to
>         integrate the translation workflow.  Adobe’s focus for
>         FlashBuilder is on building ActionScript gaming and premium
>         video projects that run on the Flash player.  I suppose if the
>         JS workflow became wildly popular and Adobe could see a
>         revenue stream by supporting such a workflow things might
>         change, but I wouldn’t count on it.  There is a better chance
>         that someone in Apache Flex will start creating plugins for
>         Eclipse to support the workflow or one of the other tool
>         vendors will provide an integrated workflow.
>
>          The future of ActionScript 3 in Rich Internet Applications
>         (as opposed to ActionScript “Next” as mentioned in the Flash
>         roadmap) is actually being given more attention by Apache Flex
>         than Adobe.  If you want to continue to use ActionScript 3 to
>         develop RIAs, I would encourage you to get involved with the
>         Apache Flex project.
>
>          On 12/17/12 2:16 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]>
>         wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>              On 17/12/2012 05:12, Alex Harui wrote:
>
>
>
>                   Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Adobe has
>                 spent the year donating the Flex SDK and Falcon
>                 compilers to the Apache Software Foundation.  While
>                 Adobe has a small set of people contributing to Flex
>                 in Apache and a team that shipped Flash Builder 4.7
>                 and is working on subsequent Flash Builder release,
>                 Adobe is not leading the development of Flex and has
>                 not been for a full year.  The future of Flex is in
>                 the hands of the Apache Flex community.  This document
>                 should have made Adobe’s plans clear:
>                 http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html
>
>
>              I followed this link through to
>             http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html
>
>               Under Flash Player "Next" this says...
>               " and provide a foundation on which Flash can move
>             forward over the next decade."
>
>               Does this imply ActionScript working collaboratively
>             with HTML5 or is it an alternative to HTML5?
>
>               I am asking because I am hoping Flash Builder will
>             continue to offer me a way forward (AS3+HTML5).
>
>               John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>          --
>          Alex Harui
>          Flex SDK Team
>          Adobe Systems, Inc.
>         http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Alex Harui
> Flex SDK Team
> Adobe Systems, Inc.
> http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
>

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Re: Flex alternatives

Alex Harui
Well, there are several pieces.  ActionScript is a language.  It is really only the dozen classes or so in the “top-level” in the ASDoc.  String, int, RegEx, Array, Vector, a few functions like unescape, etc, plus a bunch of keywords and stuff like “var”, “class”, plus a grammar of how you put it all together.  It hasn’t changed much in years, other than the addition of Vector.  There are no plans to improve on its specification by adding things it is missing compared to other languages like Java such as method overloading, or mutiple inheritance.  Instead, Adobe is tossing out the whole specification and developing a next-generation of ActionScript.  It will have some of the same things you see in the current ActionScript, but there will be new keywords and grammar.  The goal is to give up on backward compatibility in order to get significant speed improvements by making the language easier to execute at runtime.

ActionScript currently only runs in a Virtual Machine embedded in the FlashPlayer or AIR.  Both runtimes provide additional APIs that allow you to draw stuff and get network i/o, etc.  The current APIs use ActionScript 3 syntax and are focused primarily on Sprites, Shapes and MovieClips on a display list.  New features were added in every major release.

Now, Adobe is working on embedding a new Virtual Machine that runs the next-generation ActionScript in the FlashPlayer and AIR.  The focus is on gaming, and a new set of APIs that talk to a 3d rendering engine is being devloped in the next-generation ActionScript syntax.  There will be no support for the old Sprites/Shapes/MovieClips and display list.

However, the old virtual machine that runs ActionScript 3 will continue to be embedded in the FlashPlayer and AIR that run on tradtional desktops/laptops.  I would not expect it to be co-existent on mobile versions of AIR because the new focus is on the captive runtime workflow where you pre-process your ActionScript code and the runtime libraries into a device-dependent executable.

So, given all of that, you can continue to deliver ActionScript 3 content in AIR or FlashPlayer on desktops/laptops “forever”.  And unless you have heard otherwise from the PDF team, they probably won’t eliminate support for Flash in PDF on desktop/laptops soon.

I think Apache Flex exists because folks have found the Flex workflow easy and productive and also safe because it uses structured programming, and former Flex customers are now pitching in to continue to evolve Flex as much as we can given the constraints of the current environment.  The problem for many is that, because Adobe is not evolving the ActionScript 3 language, VM and runtime APIs related to it, folks see it as a dead end and no longer want to develop apps on it.  I can see their point, but there is a reason why DOS is still around on some custom handheld devices: it works, it is well known, and has a small footprint for a constrained environment.  Flash/AIR and Flex on ActionScript3 continue to be excellent ways to create apps quickly, but it has been difficult to convince customers to stick with it.

Anyway, so far, the most interest in Apache Flex seems to be around trying to leverage the Flex workflow to create apps that run on the HTML/CSS/JS stack (without Flash).  It will have growing pains for sure, but to me, a question about CPU load is premature.  There is 1000’s of people from all over the world working on improving the runtime environment for HTML/CSS/JS.  They have made significant advances in the past several years and I don’t see a cap on it.  So any pain points you experience now are likely to be solved in the near future.  If you can continue to use Flash/AIR and let others suffer through the growing pains, consider yourself lucky.  Otherwise, put on some pads and join the battle.

On 12/19/12 9:29 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:







Thank you again.

 Although ActionScript is not being developed for the FlashPlayer, is it possible that it may still be developed separately for use in AIR? I could deliver content through AIR instead of PDFs.

 My problem is that the FlashBuilder / Flash Professional workflow is such a seductive one, with that easy marriage of graphics and code, that I don't want to lose it. I have used C++ to produce graphical programs and the AS3 route is a godsend in comparison.

 One wonders "Is HMTL5 going to use any less CPU cycles than AS3, once it is doing similar work?"

 John

 On 18/12/2012 05:38, Alex Harui wrote:


  Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Things get lost in translation, but one goal of the parallel frameworks is to not leverage things that get lost in translation.  Otherwise, since JS and AS are ECMA-based, the translation works pretty well.

 Keep in mind that, while Adobe is no longer investing in ActionScript 3 on the Flash Player, and not developing Flash Player for mobile devices, and AIR may not run on all mobile devices, where the FlashPlayer is today, it will likely be there “forever”.  So, if alll of your users are using desktops/laptops that have browsers that have Flash, you can continue to use Flex and/or ActionScript 3 to build applications and they will likely run there not just in five years, but even after that.  There is no time-bomb in the players that will go off and stop running.  Even though ActionScript Next and FlashPlayer Next are not compatibile with ActionScript 3, the AS3 VM will ship in the FlashPlayers that Adobe ships in the future.  There is the possibility that the browser vendors will stop supporting plugins, but I would imagine they will keep a compatibility-mode somehow.  I think there is too much Flash content out there and to block it from existing desktops/laptops would “break the web” and I don’t expect the browser vendors or Adobe take such a risk.  There would be too much negative press.  That doesn’t mean that new computers with new OS’s may not support Flash (that’s what Apple did with IOS), and many home users may forgo traditional computers for tablets in the future, so keep that in mind as well.

 I don’t know the PDF market that well, but again, I would expect PDFs to continue to support Flash “forever” as well.  At least for the readers on traditional desktops/laptops.


 On 12/17/12 10:48 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:





 Thank you.
  That's interesting and very helpful.

  One does wonder if a separate translation tool would do the job faithfully, and so creates doubt.

  For someone that wants to use SWFs in PDFs to deliver educational content that is fully interactive, what workflow would you suggest using for the next three to five years?

  John

  On 17/12/2012 16:31, Alex Harui wrote:



  Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Adobe has no plans that I know of to get ActionScript to work with HTML5 in the same way that Google is proposing Dart as an alternative to JavaScript.

  The Apache Flex project is working on a compiler that will translate ActionScript to JavaScript.  In addition, the link I posted proposes a component framework that would enable you to build or prototype your app in Flash using FlashBuilder and ActionScript and then run a separate tool outside of FlashBuilder to translate it to JavaScript where it will run and leverage HTML or HTML5 components.

  Alternatively, the same ActionScript to JavaScript compiler would let you write the script portions of your website as ActionScript using FlashBuilder and have separate HTML files, then use the same separate tool outside of FlashBuilder to translate the ActionScript to JavaScript.  And maybe variations will be created that can output to various JS frameworks.

  At this time, there are no plans to change FlashBuilder to integrate the translation workflow.  Adobe’s focus for FlashBuilder is on building ActionScript gaming and premium video projects that run on the Flash player.  I suppose if the JS workflow became wildly popular and Adobe could see a revenue stream by supporting such a workflow things might change, but I wouldn’t count on it.  There is a better chance that someone in Apache Flex will start creating plugins for Eclipse to support the workflow or one of the other tool vendors will provide an integrated workflow.

  The future of ActionScript 3 in Rich Internet Applications (as opposed to ActionScript “Next” as mentioned in the Flash roadmap) is actually being given more attention by Apache Flex than Adobe.  If you want to continue to use ActionScript 3 to develop RIAs, I would encourage you to get involved with the Apache Flex project.

  On 12/17/12 2:16 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:









  On 17/12/2012 05:12, Alex Harui wrote:




  Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Adobe has spent the year donating the Flex SDK and Falcon compilers to the Apache Software Foundation.  While Adobe has a small set of people contributing to Flex in Apache and a team that shipped Flash Builder 4.7 and is working on subsequent Flash Builder release, Adobe is not leading the development of Flex and has not been for a full year.  The future of Flex is in the hands of the Apache Flex community.  This document should have made Adobe’s plans clear: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html



  I followed this link through to
   http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html

   Under Flash Player "Next" this says...
   " and provide a foundation on which Flash can move forward over the next decade."

   Does this imply ActionScript working collaboratively with HTML5 or is it an alternative to HTML5?

   I am asking because I am hoping Flash Builder will continue to offer me a way forward (AS3+HTML5).

   John








  --
  Alex Harui
  Flex SDK Team
  Adobe Systems, Inc.
  http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui











 --
 Alex Harui
 Flex SDK Team
 Adobe Systems, Inc.
 http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui









--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
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Re: Flex alternatives

John McCormack
Brilliant.
Thank you.

I am pleased that existing SWF's will run in an embedded VM in the new
player.

Do you think the next-generation of ActionScript will be similar enough
to make migration easy?
and
Is FlashBuilder likely to be the IDE that creates code for the new VM?

John

On 20/12/2012 05:50, Alex Harui wrote:

> Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives
>
> Well, there are several pieces.  ActionScript is a language.  It is
> really only the dozen classes or so in the “top-level” in the ASDoc.
>  String, int, RegEx, Array, Vector, a few functions like unescape,
> etc, plus a bunch of keywords and stuff like “var”, “class”, plus a
> grammar of how you put it all together.  It hasn’t changed much in
> years, other than the addition of Vector.  There are no plans to
> improve on its specification by adding things it is missing compared
> to other languages like Java such as method overloading, or mutiple
> inheritance.  Instead, Adobe is tossing out the whole specification
> and developing a next-generation of ActionScript.  It will have some
> of the same things you see in the current ActionScript, but there will
> be new keywords and grammar.  The goal is to give up on backward
> compatibility in order to get significant speed improvements by making
> the language easier to execute at runtime.
>
> ActionScript currently only runs in a Virtual Machine embedded in the
> FlashPlayer or AIR.  Both runtimes provide additional APIs that allow
> you to draw stuff and get network i/o, etc.  The current APIs use
> ActionScript 3 syntax and are focused primarily on Sprites, Shapes and
> MovieClips on a display list.  New features were added in every major
> release.
>
> Now, Adobe is working on embedding a new Virtual Machine that runs the
> next-generation ActionScript in the FlashPlayer and AIR.  The focus is
> on gaming, and a new set of APIs that talk to a 3d rendering engine is
> being devloped in the next-generation ActionScript syntax.  There will
> be no support for the old Sprites/Shapes/MovieClips and display list.
>
> However, the old virtual machine that runs ActionScript 3 will
> continue to be embedded in the FlashPlayer and AIR that run on
> tradtional desktops/laptops.  I would not expect it to be co-existent
> on mobile versions of AIR because the new focus is on the captive
> runtime workflow where you pre-process your ActionScript code and the
> runtime libraries into a device-dependent executable.
>
> So, given all of that, you can continue to deliver ActionScript 3
> content in AIR or FlashPlayer on desktops/laptops “forever”.  And
> unless you have heard otherwise from the PDF team, they probably won’t
> eliminate support for Flash in PDF on desktop/laptops soon.
>
> I think Apache Flex exists because folks have found the Flex workflow
> easy and productive and also safe because it uses structured
> programming, and former Flex customers are now pitching in to continue
> to evolve Flex as much as we can given the constraints of the current
> environment.  The problem for many is that, because Adobe is not
> evolving the ActionScript 3 language, VM and runtime APIs related to
> it, folks see it as a dead end and no longer want to develop apps on
> it.  I can see their point, but there is a reason why DOS is still
> around on some custom handheld devices: it works, it is well known,
> and has a small footprint for a constrained environment.  Flash/AIR
> and Flex on ActionScript3 continue to be excellent ways to create apps
> quickly, but it has been difficult to convince customers to stick with it.
>
> Anyway, so far, the most interest in Apache Flex seems to be around
> trying to leverage the Flex workflow to create apps that run on the
> HTML/CSS/JS stack (without Flash).  It will have growing pains for
> sure, but to me, a question about CPU load is premature.  There is
> 1000’s of people from all over the world working on improving the
> runtime environment for HTML/CSS/JS.  They have made significant
> advances in the past several years and I don’t see a cap on it.  So
> any pain points you experience now are likely to be solved in the near
> future.  If you can continue to use Flash/AIR and let others suffer
> through the growing pains, consider yourself lucky.  Otherwise, put on
> some pads and join the battle.
>
> On 12/19/12 9:29 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     Thank you again.
>
>      Although ActionScript is not being developed for the FlashPlayer,
>     is it possible that it may still be developed separately for use
>     in AIR? I could deliver content through AIR instead of PDFs.
>
>      My problem is that the FlashBuilder / Flash Professional workflow
>     is such a seductive one, with that easy marriage of graphics and
>     code, that I don't want to lose it. I have used C++ to produce
>     graphical programs and the AS3 route is a godsend in comparison.
>
>      One wonders "Is HMTL5 going to use any less CPU cycles than AS3,
>     once it is doing similar work?"
>
>      John
>
>      On 18/12/2012 05:38, Alex Harui wrote:
>
>
>           Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Things get lost in
>         translation, but one goal of the parallel frameworks is to not
>         leverage things that get lost in translation.  Otherwise,
>         since JS and AS are ECMA-based, the translation works pretty well.
>
>          Keep in mind that, while Adobe is no longer investing in
>         ActionScript 3 on the Flash Player, and not developing Flash
>         Player for mobile devices, and AIR may not run on all mobile
>         devices, where the FlashPlayer is today, it will likely be
>         there “forever”.  So, if alll of your users are using
>         desktops/laptops that have browsers that have Flash, you can
>         continue to use Flex and/or ActionScript 3 to build
>         applications and they will likely run there not just in five
>         years, but even after that.  There is no time-bomb in the
>         players that will go off and stop running.  Even though
>         ActionScript Next and FlashPlayer Next are not compatibile
>         with ActionScript 3, the AS3 VM will ship in the FlashPlayers
>         that Adobe ships in the future.  There is the possibility that
>         the browser vendors will stop supporting plugins, but I would
>         imagine they will keep a compatibility-mode somehow.  I think
>         there is too much Flash content out there and to block it from
>         existing desktops/laptops would “break the web” and I don’t
>         expect the browser vendors or Adobe take such a risk.  There
>         would be too much negative press.  That doesn’t mean that new
>         computers with new OS’s may not support Flash (that’s what
>         Apple did with IOS), and many home users may forgo traditional
>         computers for tablets in the future, so keep that in mind as well.
>
>          I don’t know the PDF market that well, but again, I would
>         expect PDFs to continue to support Flash “forever” as well.
>          At least for the readers on traditional desktops/laptops.
>
>
>          On 12/17/12 10:48 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]>
>         wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>              Thank you.
>               That's interesting and very helpful.
>
>               One does wonder if a separate translation tool would do
>             the job faithfully, and so creates doubt.
>
>               For someone that wants to use SWFs in PDFs to deliver
>             educational content that is fully interactive, what
>             workflow would you suggest using for the next three to
>             five years?
>
>               John
>
>               On 17/12/2012 16:31, Alex Harui wrote:
>
>
>
>                   Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Adobe has no
>                 plans that I know of to get ActionScript to work with
>                 HTML5 in the same way that Google is proposing Dart as
>                 an alternative to JavaScript.
>
>                   The Apache Flex project is working on a compiler
>                 that will translate ActionScript to JavaScript.  In
>                 addition, the link I posted proposes a component
>                 framework that would enable you to build or prototype
>                 your app in Flash using FlashBuilder and ActionScript
>                 and then run a separate tool outside of FlashBuilder
>                 to translate it to JavaScript where it will run and
>                 leverage HTML or HTML5 components.
>
>                   Alternatively, the same ActionScript to JavaScript
>                 compiler would let you write the script portions of
>                 your website as ActionScript using FlashBuilder and
>                 have separate HTML files, then use the same separate
>                 tool outside of FlashBuilder to translate the
>                 ActionScript to JavaScript.  And maybe variations will
>                 be created that can output to various JS frameworks.
>
>                   At this time, there are no plans to change
>                 FlashBuilder to integrate the translation workflow.
>                  Adobe’s focus for FlashBuilder is on building
>                 ActionScript gaming and premium video projects that
>                 run on the Flash player.  I suppose if the JS workflow
>                 became wildly popular and Adobe could see a revenue
>                 stream by supporting such a workflow things might
>                 change, but I wouldn’t count on it.  There is a better
>                 chance that someone in Apache Flex will start creating
>                 plugins for Eclipse to support the workflow or one of
>                 the other tool vendors will provide an integrated
>                 workflow.
>
>                   The future of ActionScript 3 in Rich Internet
>                 Applications (as opposed to ActionScript “Next” as
>                 mentioned in the Flash roadmap) is actually being
>                 given more attention by Apache Flex than Adobe.  If
>                 you want to continue to use ActionScript 3 to develop
>                 RIAs, I would encourage you to get involved with the
>                 Apache Flex project.
>
>                   On 12/17/12 2:16 AM, "John McCormack"
>                 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                       On 17/12/2012 05:12, Alex Harui wrote:
>
>
>
>
>                           Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives
>                          Adobe has spent the year donating the Flex
>                         SDK and Falcon compilers to the Apache
>                         Software Foundation.  While Adobe has a small
>                         set of people contributing to Flex in Apache
>                         and a team that shipped Flash Builder 4.7 and
>                         is working on subsequent Flash Builder
>                         release, Adobe is not leading the development
>                         of Flex and has not been for a full year.  The
>                         future of Flex is in the hands of the Apache
>                         Flex community.  This document should have
>                         made Adobe’s plans clear:
>                         http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html
>
>
>
>                       I followed this link through to
>                     http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html
>
>                        Under Flash Player "Next" this says...
>                        " and provide a foundation on which Flash can
>                     move forward over the next decade."
>
>                        Does this imply ActionScript working
>                     collaboratively with HTML5 or is it an alternative
>                     to HTML5?
>
>                        I am asking because I am hoping Flash Builder
>                     will continue to offer me a way forward (AS3+HTML5).
>
>                        John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                   --
>                   Alex Harui
>                   Flex SDK Team
>                   Adobe Systems, Inc.
>                 http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>          --
>          Alex Harui
>          Flex SDK Team
>          Adobe Systems, Inc.
>         http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Alex Harui
> Flex SDK Team
> Adobe Systems, Inc.
> http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
>

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Re: Flex alternatives

Alex Harui
To not allow existing SWFs to play where they currently play would “break the web” and Adobe has no interest in doing that.

The next generation of AS is supposed to be easy to migrate to if you just want to get your code to run, but there is a chance that to fully leverage the performance benefits of the new language you will have to learn some new constructs and refactor existing code.

FlashBuilder will definitely be the IDE for developing applications for the new VM and new AS.


On 12/21/12 10:41 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:







Brilliant.
 Thank you.

 I am pleased that existing SWF's will run in an embedded VM in the new player.

 Do you think the next-generation of ActionScript will be similar enough to make migration easy?
 and
 Is FlashBuilder likely to be the IDE that creates code for the new VM?

 John

 On 20/12/2012 05:50, Alex Harui wrote:


  Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Well, there are several pieces.  ActionScript is a language.  It is really only the dozen classes or so in the “top-level” in the ASDoc.  String, int, RegEx, Array, Vector, a few functions like unescape, etc, plus a bunch of keywords and stuff like “var”, “class”, plus a grammar of how you put it all together.  It hasn’t changed much in years, other than the addition of Vector.  There are no plans to improve on its specification by adding things it is missing compared to other languages like Java such as method overloading, or mutiple inheritance.  Instead, Adobe is tossing out the whole specification and developing a next-generation of ActionScript.  It will have some of the same things you see in the current ActionScript, but there will be new keywords and grammar.  The goal is to give up on backward compatibility in order to get significant speed improvements by making the language easier to execute at runtime.

 ActionScript currently only runs in a Virtual Machine embedded in the FlashPlayer or AIR.  Both runtimes provide additional APIs that allow you to draw stuff and get network i/o, etc.  The current APIs use ActionScript 3 syntax and are focused primarily on Sprites, Shapes and MovieClips on a display list.  New features were added in every major release.

 Now, Adobe is working on embedding a new Virtual Machine that runs the next-generation ActionScript in the FlashPlayer and AIR.  The focus is on gaming, and a new set of APIs that talk to a 3d rendering engine is being devloped in the next-generation ActionScript syntax.  There will be no support for the old Sprites/Shapes/MovieClips and display list.

 However, the old virtual machine that runs ActionScript 3 will continue to be embedded in the FlashPlayer and AIR that run on tradtional desktops/laptops.  I would not expect it to be co-existent on mobile versions of AIR because the new focus is on the captive runtime workflow where you pre-process your ActionScript code and the runtime libraries into a device-dependent executable.

 So, given all of that, you can continue to deliver ActionScript 3 content in AIR or FlashPlayer on desktops/laptops “forever”.  And unless you have heard otherwise from the PDF team, they probably won’t eliminate support for Flash in PDF on desktop/laptops soon.

 I think Apache Flex exists because folks have found the Flex workflow easy and productive and also safe because it uses structured programming, and former Flex customers are now pitching in to continue to evolve Flex as much as we can given the constraints of the current environment.  The problem for many is that, because Adobe is not evolving the ActionScript 3 language, VM and runtime APIs related to it, folks see it as a dead end and no longer want to develop apps on it.  I can see their point, but there is a reason why DOS is still around on some custom handheld devices: it works, it is well known, and has a small footprint for a constrained environment.  Flash/AIR and Flex on ActionScript3 continue to be excellent ways to create apps quickly, but it has been difficult to convince customers to stick with it.

 Anyway, so far, the most interest in Apache Flex seems to be around trying to leverage the Flex workflow to create apps that run on the HTML/CSS/JS stack (without Flash).  It will have growing pains for sure, but to me, a question about CPU load is premature.  There is 1000’s of people from all over the world working on improving the runtime environment for HTML/CSS/JS.  They have made significant advances in the past several years and I don’t see a cap on it.  So any pain points you experience now are likely to be solved in the near future.  If you can continue to use Flash/AIR and let others suffer through the growing pains, consider yourself lucky.  Otherwise, put on some pads and join the battle.

 On 12/19/12 9:29 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:








 Thank you again.

  Although ActionScript is not being developed for the FlashPlayer, is it possible that it may still be developed separately for use in AIR? I could deliver content through AIR instead of PDFs.

  My problem is that the FlashBuilder / Flash Professional workflow is such a seductive one, with that easy marriage of graphics and code, that I don't want to lose it. I have used C++ to produce graphical programs and the AS3 route is a godsend in comparison.

  One wonders "Is HMTL5 going to use any less CPU cycles than AS3, once it is doing similar work?"

  John

  On 18/12/2012 05:38, Alex Harui wrote:



  Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Things get lost in translation, but one goal of the parallel frameworks is to not leverage things that get lost in translation.  Otherwise, since JS and AS are ECMA-based, the translation works pretty well.

  Keep in mind that, while Adobe is no longer investing in ActionScript 3 on the Flash Player, and not developing Flash Player for mobile devices, and AIR may not run on all mobile devices, where the FlashPlayer is today, it will likely be there “forever”.  So, if alll of your users are using desktops/laptops that have browsers that have Flash, you can continue to use Flex and/or ActionScript 3 to build applications and they will likely run there not just in five years, but even after that.  There is no time-bomb in the players that will go off and stop running.  Even though ActionScript Next and FlashPlayer Next are not compatibile with ActionScript 3, the AS3 VM will ship in the FlashPlayers that Adobe ships in the future.  There is the possibility that the browser vendors will stop supporting plugins, but I would imagine they will keep a compatibility-mode somehow.  I think there is too much Flash content out there and to block it from existing desktops/laptops would “break the web” and I don’t expect the browser vendors or Adobe take such a risk.  There would be too much negative press.  That doesn’t mean that new computers with new OS’s may not support Flash (that’s what Apple did with IOS), and many home users may forgo traditional computers for tablets in the future, so keep that in mind as well.

  I don’t know the PDF market that well, but again, I would expect PDFs to continue to support Flash “forever” as well.  At least for the readers on traditional desktops/laptops.


  On 12/17/12 10:48 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:






  Thank you.
   That's interesting and very helpful.

   One does wonder if a separate translation tool would do the job faithfully, and so creates doubt.

   For someone that wants to use SWFs in PDFs to deliver educational content that is fully interactive, what workflow would you suggest using for the next three to five years?

   John

   On 17/12/2012 16:31, Alex Harui wrote:




  Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Adobe has no plans that I know of to get ActionScript to work with HTML5 in the same way that Google is proposing Dart as an alternative to JavaScript.

   The Apache Flex project is working on a compiler that will translate ActionScript to JavaScript.  In addition, the link I posted proposes a component framework that would enable you to build or prototype your app in Flash using FlashBuilder and ActionScript and then run a separate tool outside of FlashBuilder to translate it to JavaScript where it will run and leverage HTML or HTML5 components.

   Alternatively, the same ActionScript to JavaScript compiler would let you write the script portions of your website as ActionScript using FlashBuilder and have separate HTML files, then use the same separate tool outside of FlashBuilder to translate the ActionScript to JavaScript.  And maybe variations will be created that can output to various JS frameworks.

   At this time, there are no plans to change FlashBuilder to integrate the translation workflow.  Adobe’s focus for FlashBuilder is on building ActionScript gaming and premium video projects that run on the Flash player.  I suppose if the JS workflow became wildly popular and Adobe could see a revenue stream by supporting such a workflow things might change, but I wouldn’t count on it.  There is a better chance that someone in Apache Flex will start creating plugins for Eclipse to support the workflow or one of the other tool vendors will provide an integrated workflow.

   The future of ActionScript 3 in Rich Internet Applications (as opposed to ActionScript “Next” as mentioned in the Flash roadmap) is actually being given more attention by Apache Flex than Adobe.  If you want to continue to use ActionScript 3 to develop RIAs, I would encourage you to get involved with the Apache Flex project.

   On 12/17/12 2:16 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:










   On 17/12/2012 05:12, Alex Harui wrote:





  Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Adobe has spent the year donating the Flex SDK and Falcon compilers to the Apache Software Foundation.  While Adobe has a small set of people contributing to Flex in Apache and a team that shipped Flash Builder 4.7 and is working on subsequent Flash Builder release, Adobe is not leading the development of Flex and has not been for a full year.  The future of Flex is in the hands of the Apache Flex community.  This document should have made Adobe’s plans clear: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html




   I followed this link through to
    http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html

    Under Flash Player "Next" this says...
    " and provide a foundation on which Flash can move forward over the next decade."

    Does this imply ActionScript working collaboratively with HTML5 or is it an alternative to HTML5?

    I am asking because I am hoping Flash Builder will continue to offer me a way forward (AS3+HTML5).

    John









   --
   Alex Harui
   Flex SDK Team
   Adobe Systems, Inc.
   http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui













  --
  Alex Harui
  Flex SDK Team
  Adobe Systems, Inc.
  http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui











 --
 Alex Harui
 Flex SDK Team
 Adobe Systems, Inc.
 http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui









--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
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Re: Flex alternatives

John McCormack
On 21/12/2012 18:52, Alex Harui wrote:

> Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives
> To not allow existing SWFs to play where they currently play would
> “break the web” and Adobe has no interest in doing that.
>
> The next generation of AS is supposed to be easy to migrate to if you
> just want to get your code to run, but there is a chance that to fully
> leverage the performance benefits of the new language you will have to
> learn some new constructs and refactor existing code.
>
> FlashBuilder will definitely be the IDE for developing applications
> for the new VM and new AS.
>

That's all good to know. Looks like I am all set for a while, at least.

I noticed you still hanging in there...
http://incubator.apache.org/flex/team.html

Thanks again.
John
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Re: Flex alternatives

Alex Harui
Actually, I’m not just hanging in there, I’m still paid by Adobe to spend all of my time on Flex.  My teammates are now folks like you who have spare cycles to contribute to the future of Flex.  Apache Flex just “graduated” to being an official “top-level” project at Apache which means it will be around for as long as folks want it to.  Adobe has no say in its future.

Working in Apache has been interesting because these new contributors have lots of diverse knowledge and experience.  The Apache Flex community is now investigating was to leverage a cross-compiler that can take in ActionScript and spit out JavaScript and allow you to use a Flex-like workflow to create RIAs that run without Flash.

My thoughts on that topic and prototype is written up here: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Prototype

On 12/21/12 12:50 PM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:







On 21/12/2012 18:52, Alex Harui wrote:


  Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives
  To not allow existing SWFs to play where they currently play would “break the web” and Adobe has no interest in doing that.

 The next generation of AS is supposed to be easy to migrate to if you just want to get your code to run, but there is a chance that to fully leverage the performance benefits of the new language you will have to learn some new constructs and refactor existing code.

 FlashBuilder will definitely be the IDE for developing applications for the new VM and new AS.



 That's all good to know. Looks like I am all set for a while, at least.

 I noticed you still hanging in there...
 http://incubator.apache.org/flex/team.html

 Thanks again.
 John






--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
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Re: Flex alternatives

John McCormack
That is a very interesting diagram showing a way forward for Flex users.

I have only used ActionScript Projects, rather than Flex, and have
mainly been concerned not to lose a way to deliver my SWFs.

I can see myself developing in JavaScript but not wishing to go back
near the beginning with programming, and liking the way SWCs are used in
my projects, I rather want things to stay as they are.

On that subject, will later FlashPlayers have separate Virtual Machines
for: (1) interpreting AIR (legacy) and (2) Browser (legacy) as well as
(3) new code which is CPU dependent machine code?

I understand that PDFs have their own built-in player and, according to
Dave Merchant on Acrobat.com, we don't know what tje future of that
might be. It would be a great shame to lose the PDF SWFs since if they
worked properly with the PDF container it would be the best way to
deliver high quality Text/Photo/Video/SWF combinations. At the moment
the SWFs and PDF container don't thoroughly know about each other. Have
I got that right about the PDF SWF player?

Forgive my delayed posts but I have been teaching three days a week and
busy winding up the apprentices assessments for the end of term.

It's a great thing that Adobe have continued to keep you involved with
the project.

John


On 21/12/2012 21:43, Alex Harui wrote:

> Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives
>
> Actually, I’m not just hanging in there, I’m still paid by Adobe to
> spend all of my time on Flex.  My teammates are now folks like you who
> have spare cycles to contribute to the future of Flex.  Apache Flex
> just “graduated” to being an official “top-level” project at Apache
> which means it will be around for as long as folks want it to.  Adobe
> has no say in its future.
>
> Working in Apache has been interesting because these new contributors
> have lots of diverse knowledge and experience.  The Apache Flex
> community is now investigating was to leverage a cross-compiler that
> can take in ActionScript and spit out JavaScript and allow you to use
> a Flex-like workflow to create RIAs that run without Flash.
>
> My thoughts on that topic and prototype is written up here:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Prototype
>
> On 12/21/12 12:50 PM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>

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Re: Flex alternatives

Alex Harui
On desktops/laptops, I will be surprised if you lose the ability to view SWFs.  I can’t imagine you are the only person to leverage SWFs in PDF and I would expect major backlash if that was to stop working.

But the question for you is, in the future will your customers be using desktop/laptops?  In the home, tablets are becoming all the rage.  This is also true in some upper executive ranks.  Tablets may not support SWF in PDF.

There aren’t separate VMs for AIR vs Web.  AIR is a delivery package of the same AS VM that you get with the FlashPlayer but with some extensions and the ability to hook into the OS, so I don’t quite know how to answer your questions.  Both the current AS VM and AS Next VM use JIT to convert AS byte code to machine code at runtime.  For mobile apps you have to pre-process the entire SWF and the AIR runtime into a single machine-dependent package.

PDF is using a special player but I think that, even if that player does not stay in sync with Flash Player Next, it doesn’t matter to you.  It should still run your content.  So, I think the big question is what kind of devices your customers will be using.  I think Adobe will support legacy content on desktop/laptops for a long time.

-Alex

On 12/23/12 10:43 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:







That is a very interesting diagram showing a way forward for Flex users.

 I have only used ActionScript Projects, rather than Flex, and have mainly been concerned not to lose a way to deliver my SWFs.

 I can see myself developing in JavaScript but not wishing to go back near the beginning with programming, and liking the way SWCs are used in my projects, I rather want things to stay as they are.

 On that subject, will later FlashPlayers have separate Virtual Machines for: (1) interpreting AIR (legacy) and (2) Browser (legacy) as well as (3) new code which is CPU dependent machine code?

 I understand that PDFs have their own built-in player and, according to Dave Merchant on Acrobat.com, we don't know what tje future of that might be. It would be a great shame to lose the PDF SWFs since if they worked properly with the PDF container it would be the best way to deliver high quality Text/Photo/Video/SWF combinations. At the moment the SWFs and PDF container don't thoroughly know about each other. Have I got that right about the PDF SWF player?

 Forgive my delayed posts but I have been teaching three days a week and busy winding up the apprentices assessments for the end of term.

 It's a great thing that Adobe have continued to keep you involved with the project.

 John


 On 21/12/2012 21:43, Alex Harui wrote:


  Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Actually, I’m not just hanging in there, I’m still paid by Adobe to spend all of my time on Flex.  My teammates are now folks like you who have spare cycles to contribute to the future of Flex.  Apache Flex just “graduated” to being an official “top-level” project at Apache which means it will be around for as long as folks want it to.  Adobe has no say in its future.

 Working in Apache has been interesting because these new contributors have lots of diverse knowledge and experience.  The Apache Flex community is now investigating was to leverage a cross-compiler that can take in ActionScript and spit out JavaScript and allow you to use a Flex-like workflow to create RIAs that run without Flash.

 My thoughts on that topic and prototype is written up here: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Prototype

 On 12/21/12 12:50 PM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:









--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
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Re: Flex alternatives

John McCormack
In reply to this post by Alex Harui
Alex

I pointed someone to this on Flashcoders:
http://www.mail-archive.com/flashcoders@.../msg58770.html
Do you have any new views on where Flash is heading?

John


On 20/12/2012 05:50, Alex Harui wrote:

> Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives
>
> Well, there are several pieces.  ActionScript is a language.  It is
> really only the dozen classes or so in the “top-level” in the ASDoc.
>  String, int, RegEx, Array, Vector, a few functions like unescape,
> etc, plus a bunch of keywords and stuff like “var”, “class”, plus a
> grammar of how you put it all together.  It hasn’t changed much in
> years, other than the addition of Vector.  There are no plans to
> improve on its specification by adding things it is missing compared
> to other languages like Java such as method overloading, or mutiple
> inheritance.  Instead, Adobe is tossing out the whole specification
> and developing a next-generation of ActionScript.  It will have some
> of the same things you see in the current ActionScript, but there will
> be new keywords and grammar.  The goal is to give up on backward
> compatibility in order to get significant speed improvements by making
> the language easier to execute at runtime.
>
> ActionScript currently only runs in a Virtual Machine embedded in the
> FlashPlayer or AIR.  Both runtimes provide additional APIs that allow
> you to draw stuff and get network i/o, etc.  The current APIs use
> ActionScript 3 syntax and are focused primarily on Sprites, Shapes and
> MovieClips on a display list.  New features were added in every major
> release.
>
> Now, Adobe is working on embedding a new Virtual Machine that runs the
> next-generation ActionScript in the FlashPlayer and AIR.  The focus is
> on gaming, and a new set of APIs that talk to a 3d rendering engine is
> being devloped in the next-generation ActionScript syntax.  There will
> be no support for the old Sprites/Shapes/MovieClips and display list.
>
> However, the old virtual machine that runs ActionScript 3 will
> continue to be embedded in the FlashPlayer and AIR that run on
> tradtional desktops/laptops.  I would not expect it to be co-existent
> on mobile versions of AIR because the new focus is on the captive
> runtime workflow where you pre-process your ActionScript code and the
> runtime libraries into a device-dependent executable.
>
> So, given all of that, you can continue to deliver ActionScript 3
> content in AIR or FlashPlayer on desktops/laptops “forever”.  And
> unless you have heard otherwise from the PDF team, they probably won’t
> eliminate support for Flash in PDF on desktop/laptops soon.
>
> I think Apache Flex exists because folks have found the Flex workflow
> easy and productive and also safe because it uses structured
> programming, and former Flex customers are now pitching in to continue
> to evolve Flex as much as we can given the constraints of the current
> environment.  The problem for many is that, because Adobe is not
> evolving the ActionScript 3 language, VM and runtime APIs related to
> it, folks see it as a dead end and no longer want to develop apps on
> it.  I can see their point, but there is a reason why DOS is still
> around on some custom handheld devices: it works, it is well known,
> and has a small footprint for a constrained environment.  Flash/AIR
> and Flex on ActionScript3 continue to be excellent ways to create apps
> quickly, but it has been difficult to convince customers to stick with it.
>
> Anyway, so far, the most interest in Apache Flex seems to be around
> trying to leverage the Flex workflow to create apps that run on the
> HTML/CSS/JS stack (without Flash).  It will have growing pains for
> sure, but to me, a question about CPU load is premature.  There is
> 1000’s of people from all over the world working on improving the
> runtime environment for HTML/CSS/JS.  They have made significant
> advances in the past several years and I don’t see a cap on it.  So
> any pain points you experience now are likely to be solved in the near
> future.  If you can continue to use Flash/AIR and let others suffer
> through the growing pains, consider yourself lucky.  Otherwise, put on
> some pads and join the battle.
>
> On 12/19/12 9:29 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     Thank you again.
>
>      Although ActionScript is not being developed for the FlashPlayer,
>     is it possible that it may still be developed separately for use
>     in AIR? I could deliver content through AIR instead of PDFs.
>
>      My problem is that the FlashBuilder / Flash Professional workflow
>     is such a seductive one, with that easy marriage of graphics and
>     code, that I don't want to lose it. I have used C++ to produce
>     graphical programs and the AS3 route is a godsend in comparison.
>
>      One wonders "Is HMTL5 going to use any less CPU cycles than AS3,
>     once it is doing similar work?"
>
>      John
>
>      On 18/12/2012 05:38, Alex Harui wrote:
>
>
>           Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Things get lost in
>         translation, but one goal of the parallel frameworks is to not
>         leverage things that get lost in translation.  Otherwise,
>         since JS and AS are ECMA-based, the translation works pretty well.
>
>          Keep in mind that, while Adobe is no longer investing in
>         ActionScript 3 on the Flash Player, and not developing Flash
>         Player for mobile devices, and AIR may not run on all mobile
>         devices, where the FlashPlayer is today, it will likely be
>         there “forever”.  So, if alll of your users are using
>         desktops/laptops that have browsers that have Flash, you can
>         continue to use Flex and/or ActionScript 3 to build
>         applications and they will likely run there not just in five
>         years, but even after that.  There is no time-bomb in the
>         players that will go off and stop running.  Even though
>         ActionScript Next and FlashPlayer Next are not compatibile
>         with ActionScript 3, the AS3 VM will ship in the FlashPlayers
>         that Adobe ships in the future.  There is the possibility that
>         the browser vendors will stop supporting plugins, but I would
>         imagine they will keep a compatibility-mode somehow.  I think
>         there is too much Flash content out there and to block it from
>         existing desktops/laptops would “break the web” and I don’t
>         expect the browser vendors or Adobe take such a risk.  There
>         would be too much negative press.  That doesn’t mean that new
>         computers with new OS’s may not support Flash (that’s what
>         Apple did with IOS), and many home users may forgo traditional
>         computers for tablets in the future, so keep that in mind as well.
>
>          I don’t know the PDF market that well, but again, I would
>         expect PDFs to continue to support Flash “forever” as well.
>          At least for the readers on traditional desktops/laptops.
>
>
>          On 12/17/12 10:48 AM, "John McCormack" <[hidden email]>
>         wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>              Thank you.
>               That's interesting and very helpful.
>
>               One does wonder if a separate translation tool would do
>             the job faithfully, and so creates doubt.
>
>               For someone that wants to use SWFs in PDFs to deliver
>             educational content that is fully interactive, what
>             workflow would you suggest using for the next three to
>             five years?
>
>               John
>
>               On 17/12/2012 16:31, Alex Harui wrote:
>
>
>
>                   Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives  Adobe has no
>                 plans that I know of to get ActionScript to work with
>                 HTML5 in the same way that Google is proposing Dart as
>                 an alternative to JavaScript.
>
>                   The Apache Flex project is working on a compiler
>                 that will translate ActionScript to JavaScript.  In
>                 addition, the link I posted proposes a component
>                 framework that would enable you to build or prototype
>                 your app in Flash using FlashBuilder and ActionScript
>                 and then run a separate tool outside of FlashBuilder
>                 to translate it to JavaScript where it will run and
>                 leverage HTML or HTML5 components.
>
>                   Alternatively, the same ActionScript to JavaScript
>                 compiler would let you write the script portions of
>                 your website as ActionScript using FlashBuilder and
>                 have separate HTML files, then use the same separate
>                 tool outside of FlashBuilder to translate the
>                 ActionScript to JavaScript.  And maybe variations will
>                 be created that can output to various JS frameworks.
>
>                   At this time, there are no plans to change
>                 FlashBuilder to integrate the translation workflow.
>                  Adobe’s focus for FlashBuilder is on building
>                 ActionScript gaming and premium video projects that
>                 run on the Flash player.  I suppose if the JS workflow
>                 became wildly popular and Adobe could see a revenue
>                 stream by supporting such a workflow things might
>                 change, but I wouldn’t count on it.  There is a better
>                 chance that someone in Apache Flex will start creating
>                 plugins for Eclipse to support the workflow or one of
>                 the other tool vendors will provide an integrated
>                 workflow.
>
>                   The future of ActionScript 3 in Rich Internet
>                 Applications (as opposed to ActionScript “Next” as
>                 mentioned in the Flash roadmap) is actually being
>                 given more attention by Apache Flex than Adobe.  If
>                 you want to continue to use ActionScript 3 to develop
>                 RIAs, I would encourage you to get involved with the
>                 Apache Flex project.
>
>                   On 12/17/12 2:16 AM, "John McCormack"
>                 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                       On 17/12/2012 05:12, Alex Harui wrote:
>
>
>
>
>                           Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex alternatives
>                          Adobe has spent the year donating the Flex
>                         SDK and Falcon compilers to the Apache
>                         Software Foundation.  While Adobe has a small
>                         set of people contributing to Flex in Apache
>                         and a team that shipped Flash Builder 4.7 and
>                         is working on subsequent Flash Builder
>                         release, Adobe is not leading the development
>                         of Flex and has not been for a full year.  The
>                         future of Flex is in the hands of the Apache
>                         Flex community.  This document should have
>                         made Adobe’s plans clear:
>                         http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html
>
>
>
>                       I followed this link through to
>                     http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html
>
>                        Under Flash Player "Next" this says...
>                        " and provide a foundation on which Flash can
>                     move forward over the next decade."
>
>                        Does this imply ActionScript working
>                     collaboratively with HTML5 or is it an alternative
>                     to HTML5?
>
>                        I am asking because I am hoping Flash Builder
>                     will continue to offer me a way forward (AS3+HTML5).
>
>                        John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                   --
>                   Alex Harui
>                   Flex SDK Team
>                   Adobe Systems, Inc.
>                 http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>          --
>          Alex Harui
>          Flex SDK Team
>          Adobe Systems, Inc.
>         http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Alex Harui
> Flex SDK Team
> Adobe Systems, Inc.
> http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
>

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